Kevin Montalbo

The year 2020 saw an unprecedented and transformative shift for the IT industry. The lockdowns forced us all to shutter our offices and work from home, which called for IT departments everywhere to rise to the occasion and use technology to become more agile, responsive and resilient. As we reach the end of the year, it becomes vital for us to look at how digital transformation is currently being implemented within organizations and what businesses are doing to improve their IT infrastructure in 2021 and beyond. 

In this episode of cocktails, we look at what CIOs are prioritizing for 2021. The challenges and opportunities presented by remote working and the digital transformation efforts initiatives, challenges and tools that have emerged and will soon drive the it industry and business into the future. Joining us in this round of cocktails is Toro Cloud CEO and founder David Brown. Hi, David.

David Brown

Good day, Kevin.

Kevin Montalbo

And our guest for today is an internationally recognized business strategist, enterprise architect, transformation consultant, futurist analyst and an in demand keynote speaker. He's widely regarded as one of the most influential figures in customer experience, digital workplace technology strategy and enterprise it. He's also the vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research where he heads up research and global client advisory into CIO issues, the future of work and the emerging technology in the enterprise. Dion Hinchcliff. Great to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

Dion Hinchcliffe

It’s great to be here. Thank you.

Kevin Montalbo

All right, let's start. You recently published the CIO Outlook for 2021 through Constellation Research. And in there, you found that CIO will be using their budgets to prioritize digital transformation more than anything else in 2021 even going beyond cyber security with things slowly normalizing and with the hope of a vaccine on the horizon. Do you see the same things being prioritized for 2021 2022 and beyond?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, I think the CIOs that I surveyed understood that, you know, at some point next year, we, some of us might get back to normal. But it's gonna leave behind shifts that aren't going to go back to the way that they were. So, um you know, we've moved here in the United States, 46 million workers moved in two weeks to remote work. They've built out offices, it, infrastructure, adopted new tools and habits. Um Businesses realize that they're more productive. I've talked to almost 200 CIOs since this all started and to a single person, they've said the productivity of workers is higher so who's going to want to give that up? Right. Um, and then the customers have moved too., and that's the part that's, that's not going to change either. Um, customers,, you know, they expected to have, um, you know, a different experience,, after the pandemic began, you know, they want, they want to, they want to be served remotely, they want things delivered, um, they want direct service. Um, and so that Digital Transformation is going to continue. Um You know, we've seen everything fast forward in 55 years, you know, between two and five years, but it certainly some organizations are going had to go much farther overnight because all their customers moved where they wanted to be serviced.

David Brown

How did they, those CIOs was talking about the productivity improvements. How are they measuring that?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Um So everyone's got their own measures, right? So, um you know, and a lot of them I would say are by the seat of the pants, you can kind of get a general sense that things are moving faster, that the the flows that you've been watching and moving quicker. So I've asked for data pretty consistently and, and, and unless you've been using more advanced talent analytics, like office 365 has amazing tools to tell you if the workers are doing the standard processes faster, you can tell, right? Because everything is instrumented in the cloud. If everything's got an API, the API S can be counted. You can go and look at and, and map those API calls to your, to your Kpis and, and, you know, you can do things you never could before, but that's, we're still in the early, early days of doing, you know, things like that. So most of it's anecdotal

David Brown

And you mentioned that, CIOs don't want to go back to the way they were doing business before they, they're seeing productivity improvements and you talk about customers. Also yeah, wanting to do business differently now in the future. What about employees? I think from my anecdotal conversations with people, they're also getting used to this whole remote workplace or flexibility, at least in terms of remote workplaces.

Dion Hinchcliffe

I think you have several personas. Um In my research, you have some people who really are more productive in an office environment. Um You know, bouncing ideas off each other getting plugged into the energy. Um having one place where that's the, that's the total focus and there's other people who just who crave that flexibility haven't been able to get it. Um We're forced to come into the office um where they get interrupted all the time. And so those people, I think that the, the introverts the knowledge workers that didn't have to do a lot of in person collaboration. Um There are beneficiaries of this and there are certainly, there are certainly losers here, there are certain people that the office like this works better for and I think, you know, the, the main office of most businesses is going to become more like the remote office. You, you go in one or two days a week when you need to otherwise you don't need to. But the people who really have to be there, they can be there. Right. And the people who don't want, don't need to be there don't have to be. I think we're just, this is the last kind of digital block that falls in the place for us. The pandemic has forced us to say, well, let's actually do what makes the most sense. We don't have to do what we did before.

David Brown

Mhm. I'm seeing some organizations even adapting their office space before employees come back en masse to accommodate more hot desking and the like already. Right. Sizing there.

Dion Hinchcliffe

Absolutely. We're rethinking how to use that space the best knowing what we know now.

David Brown

So the CIO's response obviously was accelerated in terms of remote working and the like, what were some of the biggest challenges they were saying to you that they faced over the last six months, you know, when they had to respond so quickly, probably initiatives they had in the pipeline for a while. All of a sudden they had to implement overnight. I'm imagining.

Dion Hinchcliffe

Yes, for sure. So the biggest challenges were was just the, the physical mental and psychological toll that this was taking on their workforce, right? So, you know, I heard so many stories of middle managers having to become, you know, psychologists and family mediators and really trying to solve these problems. and, and, and not being equipped to do that. So that's not the job I signed up for and I don't know how to do that. Um So we thought that the, the, the toll on workers was the number one challenge and, and suddenly ask them to do so much more and work so differently. When that toll was being taken um was a real challenge. I visited New York a short while ago, I went through the whole quarantine process and, and that entire state of New York is shell shocked. Um you know, talking to everyone just because they were hit so hard. So certain areas um have you know, have it did it differently for sure. Um In terms of the other two things it support has been severely challenged in, in dealing with it. I wrote a report on this on how remote work is going and most workers, two thirds of workers think that it doesn't have adequate resources to support them, given all the variability, there's, you know, several orders of magnitude, more endpoint variability and in the it local it infrastructure in the house, the available bandwidth, the devices they can use the apps they've been given um what works, you know, the access to the data center that they've got. Um And so that variability is creating huge support, challenges that's getting better now steadily, we see the data showing us that's the number two item. and, and the last one was that the it workers don't have the skills to handle such a big shift. Both in have them transform customer experience for the customers who want to be served in new ways and workers who now need to be supported, more intensively supported in new ways, coached through problems they never had before, kept productive. Um And so that I'm hearing that the staffing profile is not, you know, they don't have the people they need to really service this new environment.

David Brown

It's interesting, isn't it? Because you have, you haven't mentioned any sort of technical challenges. You talk, these are sort of human resource related issues, right? Mental. Um

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, in the end of the day, it's almost always, it's almost always a people problem before. It's a technology problem, right? I mean, there are some cybersecurity is a really big issue in that. Now. There's, we have, you know, 1000 times, every organization has 1000 times or so, more points of attack because it's everyone's house now too, right? And the attacks are way up, they're up 50% that we know of. Um I talked to,, certain industries like those in health care are terrified of ransomware because of what it will mean to their patients., if they get locked out of their systems. But they're also the ones that don't, they don't really work remotely. Um, they're not, they're not getting the beneficiaries of all this. I always see cyber attacks are way up. Um, but the big thing that CIOs are looking for, this is one of the clearest signals other than this need for, you know, I need to, I need to deliver on digital transformation of work and customer experience within the next six months. That's what the data says. is, is a real focus on automation to be able to do more with less, to be able to tackle these problems very, very quickly. Whereas automation was nice to have, it was always on the on the backlog and we're gonna do automation when we can and as opportunities arrive now, it's, it was more than two thirds of the cio said that is their top strategy for getting through all of this with staff reductions, all the challenges because they have to automate it support, they have to automate the business, they have to automate automate. So that's the other technology RPAA I workflow always came out really clear.

David Brown

Is it still a priority you think as, as people get back to work and start going back to the office or do you think that automation priority becomes less?

Dion Hinchcliffe

I don't know if you download the actual study and the data, but um most of the respondents and these are all top cio si hand picked. Um So these are high functioning organizations for the most part. I I wanted to get clear data. So I didn't, you know, didn't approach any organizations obviously circling the drain, but they're either going a restructuring of the business or restructuring of it or both most of them. So you have this perfect storm of, you know, we're rethinking everything, we're restructuring everything that we do. And when I pressed on some of that, I circled around and try to get some data about why that was. And they said, well, the thing is we're running on fumes, right? So we are sized and staffed and structured to be a much larger organization, but our business is way down, right? Our business is way disrupted to some industries have done well, but most of them are in the middle are not doing well and they're just trying to survive and they don't know how long they have to hang on, right? So automation is viewed as a way to hang on longer is the message that I got from some of my conversations is I can do more with less. I don't want to cut my best talent. I want to automate my least productive people and get rid of them, right? Um And keep the talent. I want to keep the the irreplaceable people as long as possible, right? With is the message I'm hearing. And there's a lot, a lot of studies from the last downturn that, that those who go of talent too quickly, never recovered fully.

Kevin Montalbo

All right. So we also saw a lot of companies and CIOs facilitating their digital transformation efforts through collaboration tools. So, in one of your previous articles, you honed in on the importance of said tools and you said that the online community or the enterprise social network is the most strategic model. Why do you think this is the case?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, the um most collaboration tools are point to point or involve small groups of people. You know, you can do email blasts for example, but it's still primarily it's a one way conversation. You're you're notifying a bunch of people. Um um you know, you know, one to many and enterprise social network has been proven that the scale like social media, you can actually involve thousands of people simultaneously in the conversation. And we also know that those, those people, those several 1000 people can be can be highly productive in knowledge work. And the proof point often uses open source software, right? These are, these are online communities of people using social tools backed by a um a code repository where they collaborate on very sophisticated software engineering problems. They actually develop operating systems databases, entire platforms. Um There are, there are something like 80,000 open source software solutions that are in a state of maturity or advanced maturity where they have a community of hundreds to thousands of people around them. There's always a core commit group, but with the whole community collaborates on making that product better over time. We know this is a repeatable thing to do and is the most cost effective, most innovative way. And, and also the lowest defect way of creating really high quality knowledge work outputs. So, and in fact, enterprise, social networks kind of came from that world saying, well, if we can do if it works with that, which is a really hard problem, we should be able to do anything with that. Um And I, I wrote once wrote a book called Social Business by Design where I gave 100 examples of enterprises doing remarkable things through mass collaboration. It's just that non technical people, non it people are not really familiar with these tools or know how to use them, you know, they didn't come up in our world. And so that's been the slow roll out. I mean, it's, it's slowly but steadily getting out there. It's just taking time for the world to adapt

David Brown

And that mass collaboration. Are you referring to mass collaboration within the organization or is it also extended outside

Dion Hinchcliffe

Deal? Well, it's one, it's one continuum, right? It's just like um you know, if email didn't allow you to reach just pretty much anybody, you wouldn't use it. You know, I can only talk to the people inside the organization. So, um you know, I'm gonna stop using it. That's one of the reasons for abandonment of mass collaboration tools is that they're not, they're artificially constrained for, for some strange reason. Now, the industry fixed that but too late. Um As people gravitated back to, to, to noisy and unproductive, you know, less productive channels like email, email has several big problems. One that assumes that you have perfect Foreknowledge about who should be involved, which we've learned now is not the case you, you leaving it, usually leaving out many important stakeholders that often many you didn't even know about. Um And then it's a very noisy and interruptive me. Um It's not, it's not really designed for it for people who come in and out of the conversation for these conversations that last a long time. And you've got the, you have the, the BC C and the, and the, and the CC chains that just, just kill, kill collaboration in large companies, especially so these new tools do work better. But unfortunately, in the early days, they were constrained. It's got to be everybody, you got to be able to reach all these, you know, all stakeholders. It's like, you know, things like slack have done so well because they don't, they don't know who, who you can talk to at all. Interesting.

Kevin Montalbo

Yeah. So how do you think the online community and ESN will drive technology and digital work forward?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, I, I'm not sure. It's a, it's a, it's a solution. I mean, I, I, I've long said it's like, I don't get too caught up in the tools. It's what we're doing that matters. You can actually do a lot of these things, without any of the tooling and some companies have like the famous company WL Gore that makes GEX, they're number one in their industry. And for 30 some odd years now, they've insisted on open collaboration um that everybody has visibility in the local work and everybody comes together to solve the problems and, and they ended up actually gravitating to these, these tools that, that, that openly share knowledge by default, right? The big difference with email is that everything is not shared, it's only shared with the people in, in that are on the email list, the recipient list in online communities and enterprise social networks, everything is shared by default. Everyone can see everything, right? Unless you've created a private group which is bad, right? Generally speaking in my, in my work, it's we've discovered those things are we we create the problem. So um it's how we work, right? So when I wrote my book, Social Business by Designer Credit, I defined 10 principles, but principle number one was in any process, anyone has to be able to participate, maybe the group won't accept that participation, right? We do see this in open source communities if you have a bad idea and you can't convince the community, they won't let you, they won't let that code check in stay. And that's a good thing, but everyone's allowed to participate, they at least get try have a chance to convince their stakeholders that that's a good thing. And this is a good idea. So that's gotta be the principle. And we, we discovered in open innovation models have shown us that that is the model that works by far, the best is gather all of the innovation and then decide what you're going to do with it.

David Brown

It's a real, it's a real mindset change though, to adopt this kind of approach, isn't it like what, what, what, what prevents companies adopting this community approach?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, one of the biggest ones is that it's not how we, we've raised, raised our managers and leaders in business school. This is not taught until very recently. Now it's now, you know, you see like companies that tend to do this tend to be very high performance. So you look at Wl Gore or Zappos, which is the big shoe manu sh a store online again, number one in their space. So you look at Valve, the, the video game company. They're, they're often number one very highly leading. And they also have the same model where there's no managers, everyone, everyone, it's a, it's a, it's a meritocracy of ideas. Everyone decides what they want to work on and, and if your community around you likes it, you get to stay right. You know, um those organizations tend to have much higher performance. So we've seen this, even with very large companies in bureaucratic cra parts of the world like um Bosch in Germany, they, they use a set of principles very much like this. And online community managers can get, have a pay grade of all the way up to the CIO, right? It's very interesting. So some people are doing this and they tend to be higher performing organizations, right? This is interesting and, and the rest of the rest of us don't really get that. But what it is is largely we're not, we don't know about it, we don't see it. We're not, we're not taught it. And so it's taking a while for us to learn this from the technology world

David Brown

Does get frustrating for you and you're consulting and you can see what works and you're telling management this works guys and getting adoption is difficult.

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, I'm dating myself but I've been a consultant for 35 years and one of the things you learned early on is it's almost always a people problem. So now I'm used to it. Right. So, and what's nice is what's exciting is that these open tools for communication and collaboration actually allow you to drive the change, right? So one of the things I insist now I've learned to just require is if you want to work, I mean, you believe that this is important, then we're going to run this project this way and we're going to drive change in the organization. You must do this whole change effort for the future of work in an online community and anyone in the organization can participate, help out learn. Um And since I started doing that, the efforts have gone consistently much better and faster because everyone can see it, they can all learn. Um They can all, they can complain, they can get all their objections off their chest and then they can, then they can begin to see how other parts of the organization are, are do doing it better. So it's just, it just works better. It it becomes a vehicle that goes of itself if you, if you start it that way.

David Brown

So like whilst as ipos will sort of have a whole of organization type community approach, presumably for a large organization wants to adopt the second side on a project basis, like some small isolated project

Dion Hinchcliffe

You can always start. In fact, I'd say because these are largely perceived as optional communication channels, it's difficult to get more. I see very few organizations that they get over over more than about half of their organization really active in these channels. And that's OK. It's, it's about having the right people using the right tools for the job. And you'll tend to be, tend to be projects, right? It will tend to be efforts like, you know, a big rfps and sales, big operational situations and ops big projects inside the organization like Bosch has this great piece of data. But when they moved the relocation of an assembly line from the traditional way into the enterprise social network, setting up a production line dropped from, I think it was um four week to six days. And they said, wow, so this is, I mean, it was evidence that they were on the right track, right? Because you know, the data is out there. We just it's taking a while for the management theory and our education and our mentoring processes to catch up.

David Brown

Right? Your, your, your book that you've mentioned a couple of times. This, this elaborates on this whole concept and goes through the data and some of the the case studies associated with this.

Dion Hinchcliffe

Yeah. Yes. And that goes through it and it has a framework for doing it. It's based on a number of the early projects that I worked on that were successful in that regard as well as I took everyone else in the community that had a success story and captured theirs as well. So there's 100 high impact case studies, each one with data of some kind in them. Um And I want to say this is, if this is happening, we should see lots of people doing it and, and I was able to find that now is a lot more. I mean, it's amazing. I'm contacted by these big companies. They're just now catching on to it, right. You know, so it is happening out there. It just, it just takes time to change millions of people. Yes.

Kevin Montalbo

All right. Um, so let's talk about,, your,, post pandemic playbook., I thought it was an interesting read., what's your advice to cio S as we now transition towards this new normal,, world?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Um, so my post pandemic playbook, easy to find by those words, um, is one of the top ones out there. I've had it, I sent it to all my cio contacts and I had many of them that said that they use that as a basis for their plan, the start of their plan, right. Then they had to add in all the things that they had to do. Um, I think you have to do two things. One, you need to have a, um, a recovery, um, a matrix,, recovery effort. So, the teams from as many parts of the organization as you can get to work on just, just surviving and then, um, you know, getting things back to some semblance of normal and then you need a growth, a growth team that says, all right. So the world has changed, there's all new opportunities and there's a lot of things we shouldn't be doing anymore. I have to change that we're wasting time and money on. Um You know, what are those things? Um And you know, and all the money you save can be, can be driven back into growth and then you put that funding into what you're going to do. So I say that's the, that's the macro picture. But if you zoom in it's we got to retrain the workforce to work differently. I mean, for an email and video calls, I mean, I have people that are losing their minds because they're stuck in 12 hours of zoom calls a day, right? Um Zoom fatigue is set in, right? Um You know, it's so funny now hardly anyone turns their cameras on. I don't know if you guys are running on the same thing but you know, people, people you haven't met before, right? They're like, no, I, I barely got out of bed today. So this is, this is what you get. Um And so we just have to train a big mass collaboration tools are much more efficient and thousands of people can meet without stepping on each other, they can all be productive. At the same time, you put someone on a conference call and one person is talking, you know, a few people are checking email for sure, but that's not productivity, right? If one person doing the talking, everyone doing the listening, well, whereas if you work in these channels, you can have 1000 people all working at the same time, all working together with each other at the same time. That's the magic. So there's these better channels for this, this more remote, more asynchronous um way of life that we have now. So, so just retraining the workforce. Um And then, you know, we, we saw all of our 2020 digital transformation goals got thrown right out the window, all of our plans got thrown out. But the data, many data sets show that the one part of the it budget that hasn't been cut and 70 to 80% of organizations is digital transformation because everyone knows that's the future the world has suddenly changed. And now we if we cut our budget on catching up with those changes, we're really gonna get far, far behind and we might not make it. So that's, that's been a really encouraging, I think a sign of sanity in an insane, otherwise insane year. And it makes sense to me. And so we see this, this, you know, this, this desire to invest, but what we're seeing from the survey is that they don't feel like they have the talent. So we're seeing um new approaches to talent like on demand, staffing like gig economy. I have this new gig economy for it shortlist you can find by that name. There's all these start ups that have sprung up in the last couple of years mostly before the pandemic to say,, you need a DEV ops team that knows all about analytics. Well, we'll have the whole team ready to go, right. You want to work for two months and then you don't need them anymore because the solution is there, that's fine. Um And so there's like, you know, gig and, and top coder and you know, all these companies out there that, that now now can provide this rarified, increasingly specialized talent because it is getting more complicated. So it's creating all these rarified buckets. We don't need a whole person, you know, to do Aws outposts, maybe, um maybe we see that person for a few weeks to get us. So the code will run there. Um And then we're good from that, right? So on demand talent is where I see this a lot of interest. And, and this is gonna allow um it practitioners to create designer careers, they only have to work on the projects that sound very interesting to them, right? Because they're in high demand, they can turn down whatever they want. So it's creating a very interesting new designer, it career model. it's all sprung up in the last, you know, couple of years, but, you know, I see this it's um it's taken over professional services, 40% of staffing and professional services is already this model.

David Brown

It's really interesting. I mean, it sort of leads to where the future is going. Where do you see the future of digital transformation initiatives over the next 10 years? Is that you talked about the lack of skills and, and in the development organization. So, is it about low code application development? Is it about machine learning or microservices and dev ops? Is it rob robotic process automation? Where is it going?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, I mean, automation is, is gonna be the foundation, right? So what I like to say is, is by 2025 90% of everything in it will be automated just to tread water, you'll be able to cut the head count, right? But so much more it will be around and a lot of that will be low code, the organizations that can effectively roll out low code to a lot of workers who are going to beat up the organizations that can't, right. We're gonna be able to do a lot more digitization, a lot more change, a lot more automation without costing much more, right? Because you're gonna get most most high functioning knowledge workers in the organization can learn how to become low coders. Now, the platforms are really quite good. I mean, I use them now because they are so effective. and the world will catch on um and so what do we do after that? Well, we chase our customers and, and we're gonna give them, you know, 1 to 1 customized experiences. That's the end game over the next 10 years. Everyone is going to begin to get a per a truly personalized experience from the companies they work with. I already get it now from certain companies. Right. We always, they're telling me what they think I might be interested in. They're often, right? You know, um and anticipating the products that I want and giving them to me, not waiting for me to ask. So that's happening. It's just again slow, it'll take 10 years at least for the average organization to get around to doing this. That's what they're going to aim at when they automate a lot, they're going to be able to free up a lot of t to say. All right, what's the highly competitive I want to hold my customer really close by giving them what they want before they even ask for it. Right? And they just keep paying me, right? And so it just, you know, very anticipatory, personalized, customized demand curve that you're going to ride with every customer, 1 to 1, right? That's the end goal um that we see and the companies that can get close to that, right? No one's gonna get, no one's gonna achieve that truly in a really meaningful way except for maybe like Amazon or Apple in the short term, but long term, you have to be trying to crack that nut, get closer and closer. And so, um, that's the end game is, is, you know, creating the ultimate customer experiences for our organizations and we have to automate everything so we can free up enough creativity and capacity to actually start delivering on that.

David Brown

Exciting times and, and what's gonna prevent companies doing it? What's gonna, what's gonna be the number one thing achieving it? Is it coming back to the people?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting, it's like, um you know, I, for a long time I saw pro coders, the people, you know, who actually professionally code for a living were really against low code and still really look down on it. But they now look at it. I've seen a shift now where they kind of see that, hey, this actually frees me up to do the really only keep the really exciting projects and only pro coders can do. There's a lot of things only pro coders will be able to do for the foreseeable future, right? But business applications is not one of them, right? But I need very few people who love coding business applications. Um And so from that standpoint, you're still gonna have a lot of people in it that are going to be against these new ways saying how are we going to manage 1000 new end user coded applications? And keep them secure and private. Well, that's actually the job of it in the future is, is putting guardrails around all of this user generated it, which is where things are going. We already had it. We just don't, we just don't recognize it., 40% of what we do in organizations is run by spreadsheets, which is a terrible model for how to run an organization right now. All that should be moved to these new tools that are, you know, that have, you know, real application life cycle management and um you know, the IU can configuration, manage and all those sorts of things, right? So yeah, so but is getting all that mature, getting that a mature user generated it process for, you know, a significant amount of it, let's say another 30 or 40% of it will is going to come from this new user generated model over time and managing it and securing it, putting the guardrails on it. Well, we have to put all that infrastructure in place. So it's finally now it service management tools that understand, I got to manage low, low code and all I got to manage shadow it even though I didn't buy it, you know, I still have to manage it. So so getting all of that in the place, automating that 90% of it that those are the challenges and talent is having the right talents. We need new talent sourcing models. Those are now here though. And it, but it's just getting everyone up that, that understanding curve. Um There's just so much learning that we have to do to make that happen.

David Brown

Dion, you've developed some excellent playbooks and practical strategies for companies to adopt and embrace these changes. Where can the listeners find out more about you and find these resources?

Dion Hinchcliffe

Well, um you can search for my name on Google all my, all the right places, my ZD net column, um my personal website Dionhinchcliff.com, my Twitter handle is probably the very best place to get a constant feed of everything I'm working on in real time. That's D Hinchcliff. Um And you pretty much, we let you catch up with everything. I'm working on.

David Brown

Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time. So knowledgeable, such interesting insight into what's going on within organizations. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Kevin Montalbo

Thank you very much Dion Hinchcliff for being with us to our listeners. What did you think of this episode? Do you have any predictions for the future of work? How are you implementing your digital transformation strategies? Let us know in the comments from the podcast platform you're listening to. Also, please visit our website at www.torocloud.com for our blog and our products. We're also on social media, Facebook, LinkedIn, Youtube, Twitter, and Instagram, talk to us there because we listen, just look for Toro Cloud again, thank you very much for joining us for a round of cocktails today. This has been Dion Hinchcliff, David Brown and Kevin Montalbo at your service for Coding over cocktails.